Sometimes Facebook status messages and subsequent comments deserve more attention, and greater longevity, than they would get if hidden away on someone’s ‘Wall’ beneath hundreds of other messages. This is one such status message. Someone who has “Unofficial Jewish tendencies” and greatly attracted to Chassidut and Kabbalah became disheartened on hearing their views of non-Jews. I believe the discussion bears on important issues.
Please note: I have edited the discussion, changing names apart from my own and taken out the numerous personal comments. It is not about the person involved but the issues involved.
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Jane Jackson learnt today that my deeds "do not add or subtract from the state of creation, nor do they cause Gd to reveal itself or withdraw. All they can do is bring about their own gain or loss..." and is feeling more than a little disheartened.
Neil Clarke On the other hand, Rambam says "With a single good deed he will tip the scales for himself, and for the entire world, to the side of good."
Jim Bowen Bye, bye Chassidus
Jane Jackson Is Rambam referring to Jews perchance?
Jim Bowen This week Ramban calls Rambam a heretic. Judaism can descend into racism pretty quickly when you make an ontological commitment to certain chassidic ideas.
Jane Jackson Are you saying from a NON chassidic viewpoint that my deeds do effect a change in the spiritual realm? Or that there is no connecton between physical deeds and changes in the spiritual realm at all? Hmmm?
Neil Clarke As to your earlier question, Rambam does say "all men", as opposed to "all Israel" when talking about our customs during ten days of repentance. Plus, Rambam never makes an absolute distinction between Jews and Gentiles. We will find it easier because of the Torah but everyone has the same potential. He believes non-Jews have the same capacity for prophecy.
Neil Clarke As to your question about "spiritual realms" a non-kabbalist (let us leave chassidim out of it, because you can have non-chassidic kabbalists) wouldn't talk about 'spiritual realms' in the same way. But they would definitely say our actions have an effect in a) this world b) our soul c) G-d's accounting of us. Rav Hirsch, for example, thinks it makes mitzvot 'amulets' if you want them to effect (what he calls) 'dream worlds'. The Torah allows us to make spirituality a living reality
Jane Jackson So are you saying (or Rambam saying...) that non-Jews have a neshama with the same potential as a Jewish neshama in terms of spiritual growth and attainment (ie. in olam haba)? And would a non-kabblist say that a non-Jew's actions have the same effects in this world/our souls/Gd's accounting of us? Or lesser?
Jim Bowen Bilam is the key Torah example of a non-Jewish capacity for prophecy. Regarding your last question, the latter option is the more likely, owing to a fundamental disagreement in the nature of the spiritual realm. To clarify, I thought your... original quote was non-chassidic, referring to everyone. Neil, I refer to chassidus because it incorporates the kind of ideology which I'm assuming Jane is being exposed to here; I could be wrong. A non-chassidic kabbalist worth looking at if you want another take would be Rav Yitzchak Kook; I don't know if he would say something similar to what you've heard here, but somehow I suspect not. Where did this come from? A more level playing field is created by dispelling the notion of the divine spark within a Jew (something inherently present) and considering instead the divine potential of a human to become like Gd through their actions (which emulation we would say is possible through study of the Torah as an instruction manual to guide decisions).
Jane Jackson Non Jews do not have a divine spark then? I was reading Derech Hashem....
Jim Bowen I've always had a problem with the racist undertones when I've been told that non-Jews are fundamentally different and in some way 'spiritually' inferior to Jews. Don't have the sources to counter it to my satisfaction though I'm afraid; maybe Neil does. :)
Jim Bowen The question is not whether non-Jews have a divine spark, but whether such a thing as a piece of Gd exists in people at all. Rather, do we not all have potential to fulfil Gd's will? The non-Jew has fewer obligations, making it easier I suppose, but the more mitzvot required of a person the more difficult it is to do what Gd wants of you, thus the more praiseworthy it is to do it. I think. Does that make sense?
Neil Clarke I can't speak on behalf of all non-kabbalists! For Rambam, yes- a non-Jew has the same potential. Only Jews have a "divine nation" where all these things are written into our everyday laws and lives, and so we will be more likely to be successful. But 'the righteous of all nations have a place in Olam Haba'
Plus, 'neshama' may be a slightly different concept for non-Kabbalists. Kabbalists have it that a neshama is literally part of G-d. Adam Kadmon was an entirely spiritual being, and when he sinned the 'vessels shattered' into millions of pieces and got caught in the sitra achra- our bodies. 'Knesset Yisrael' is the totality of all these divine sparks trapped inside a Jew's body. Therefore: Jews souls = Knesset Yisrael = Adam Kadmon = Shechina.
In this picture, a non-Jew only has an animal soul because, whilst he can be as good as a Jew, he doesn't have part of that original divine spark.
A non-kabbalist wouldn't take that view of a neshama. The neshama is our purpose, that which animates our body and gives it 'the breath of life'. Non-Jews can elevate the physical as much as anyone else, as they also have a divine purpose. For a kabbalist, the physical is the sitra achra- "the dark side". For a non-kabbalist, the physical is neutral: we can either live an unredeemed animal existence, or use the physical in a spiritual G-d given way.See More
Neil Clarke Although, Jim in bringing up Rav Kook- yes, he was clearly a kabbalist. And he definately believed in "divine sparks".
He does write that he saw a Rembrandt painting, and thought that when the vessels shattered, he gave some of that light to Rembrandt to put in his paintings.
Also: Through dispersion among gentiles, [Judaism] gathers and incorporates the fragments of truth wherever it finds them scattered- Rabbi Elijah Benamozegh (1823-1900)
Neil Clarke Also, as for Bilaam the Sifrei says:
"There has arisen no prophet in Israel like unto Moses" but in the Gentile world there has arisen[such a prophet]. And who? Balaam the son of Beor
So, he had the potential, but he blew it!
Jim Bowen See Derech Hashem as a good representation of a kabbalistic world view, but not the be all and end all of orthodox Jewish thought; it's one version of Judaism, but is not the whole. Ramchal's writing is rooted in a kabbalistic and chassidic tradition which you are under no obligation to adopt or accept.
Jane Jackson Yes, that goes make sense, non-kabbalists see it as though there isn't necessarily a divine spark in Jews or anyone... and that anyone - Jew or non-Jew - has the potential to realise Gd and elevate the physical and use it for it's spiritual purpose? But it's harder for a Jew as they have more 'rules'. Ok. I like kabblistic thought but at this time... it's quite hard for me to feel so pointless...
Neil Clarke I just want to end on a positive- sometimes when one spends their time arguing against something, they end up sounding negative...
As such, I certainly do believe in a 'divine spark' within us. It is t...hat spiritual element G-d has given us (whatever that might be) which allows us to be more than just an animal, and allows us- through our actions- to resemble the divine.
As it says in Tanach, in the Book of Kings/Melachim:
"I call heaven and earth to witness, BE A MAN A JEW OR A NON-JEW, man or woman, manservant or maidservant, only according to their actions will the spirit of G-d rest upon them"
